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Rev. 6:2--The identity of the rider on the white horse.

 
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Seraphim
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Rev. 6:2--The identity of the rider on the white horse. Reply with quote

The identity of the rider on the white horse.

Thought I would repost this article I wrote a while ago.

The identity of the rider on the white horse.

I have been thinking about the rider on the white horse of late. This being the first horseman of the apocalypse. Who is he?

In the book of revelation there are two instances of a rider on a white horse . Are they the same rider or two separate riders?

The following scripture mentions the first rider on a white horse and this rider is the one I think is not Jesus Christ but probably the antichrist . The second mention of a rider on a white horse I shall deal with later .

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.


The watchtower teaches us that this rider is Jesus Christ . There are a number of problems with this view as I shall explain .

I shall put forward each logical argument in turn so you can all consider them one by one .

The first argument is to do with the problem of Jesus being one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse .

The four horsemen are associated with the signs leading up to Christís second coming . Considering that the parallel account of these signs in the book of Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 are said to be the `beginnings of pangs of distress` namely this mysterious rider on a white horse who is conquering then warfare ,famine ,pestilence and death . It is not logical to think that Jesus is the first rider of these horsemen . Jesus is not seen until later after the tribulation when he is seen coming in the clouds of heaven . This is argument number one .

The second argument involves what the first horse man of the apocalypse is carrying .

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

This rider has a bow and a single crown .

This is interesting because later on in Revelation a rider on a white horse which is clearly Jesus Christ does not have a bow but a long sword coming out of his mouth . Ok some will argue that to begin with ,assuming that the first white horseman is Jesus Christ , that the reason he has a bow instead of a sword is because Christ at this stage is at a distance so a sword would not be any good . This of course is tied up with the 1914 idea of several comings or slow coming over 100 years or more . Of course this is rubbish as the bible only supports Christís coming at a single point in time or advent . Well of course this argument is not conclusive on its own as to proving that this rider is not Jesus Christ and it is possible that he starts of with a bow for some reason we donít understand . However there is another scripture in Revelation that shows that Jesus in fact does start off with a sword and not a bow .

Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes as a fiery flame;
Rev 1:15 and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace; and his voice was as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power.


Rev 2:16 Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.

So assuming that Revelation is somewhat chronological we see that Jesus starts off with a sword from his mouth but then strangely swaps it for a bow then changes it back again for a sword . This makes no sense if this first rider on a white horse is Jesus Christ .

Also the matter of the crown that is being worn .
This first white horseman is given a crown and also this crown in Greek is a stephanos . This type of crown is a wreath or a twine and is placed upon the head as a badge of royalty and is associated with conquering and was also given to sports champions as with the Olympics . However the rider on the second white horse who is Jesus Christ for sure is not said to be given a crown but has many crowns . The Greek for these crowns mentioned in Revelation 19:12 is Diadema . This type of Crown or crowns are not placed upon the head as with stephanos but are wrapped round the head like a turban . This would seem to be more appropriate for Jesus as its more permanent . Along with the fact that he has more than one of these wraparound crowns that are not given to him would seem to indicate that he already had the crowns and the authority that the crowns conferred . It doesnít make sense that Christ would have both types of crowns on at the same time and more than one . As a point of practicality bearing in mind that this is symbolic of course it would be easier to wear many stephanos at the same time as it would diadema . This is the second argument .

The third argument involves what the first rider on the white horse does . The way the new world translation puts it is this :

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

This translation implies that this rider is going to complete his conquest . However in the kingdom interlinear translation the idea conveyed is not to complete his conquest but `that he might conquer` . Also in all the other translations I can find this thought of completion does not exist . Here are some examples :

ALT) And look! A white horse, and the one sitting on it having a bow, and a victor's wreath was given to him, and he went out conquering, and so that he should conquer.

(ASV) And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

(BBE) And I saw a white horse, and he who was seated on it had a bow; and there was given to him a crown: and he went out with power to overcome.

(CEV) Then I saw a white horse. Its rider carried a bow and was given a crown. He had already won some victories, and he went out to win more.

This mistranslation is undoubtedly due to the Watchtowers 1914 dogma again . Its is in keeping with the erroneous idea that Christ came in 1914 and is conquering since 1914 until he completes his conquest . However that thought is not contained in this scripture . Transversely when Christ is on his white horse he wars with the nations very quickly as they are still alive when pitched into the fiery lake that burns with fire and sulphur . So for this reason the first horseman of the apocalypse is likely not Jesus Christ . So in no way would Christ be conquering in order to conquer which is the correct meaning of this verse. This is the third argument .

The forth argument involves a scripture in Daniel.

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Mes∑si'ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. "And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

This is the new world translation but I prefer these translations instead :


(CEV) At the end of the sixty-two weeks, the Chosen Leader will be killed and left with nothing. A foreign ruler and his army will sweep down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins, and war and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided.

(Darby) And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, --the desolations determined.

This scripture is of course talking about the time of Christ but also the time of the end . It talks about a prince or leader who will come and then bring war and desolations . The first rider on the white horse because he had a stephanos on which denotes a conqueror or royalty (like an antichrist pretending to be a prince like Christ ) fits well with this scripture in Daniel . Also after this prince has appeared there is war and then desolations . Sounds very similar to the four horsemen of the apocalypse of which the rider on the white horse is the first . So this suggests again that the first rider on the white horse is not only not Jesus but is the antichrist . This is the fourth argument .

The final argument involves a scripture in Hebrews :

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.
Heb 4:13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.
Heb 4:14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him].

Most people would think that this scripture is talking about the bible . However it is in fact talking about Jesus Christ who was and is called `the word`
For instance the bible is not alive and being a book and an inanimate object it does not discern thoughts or intentions of the heart .Also in verse 13 we notice that in the same context a personal pronoun is used . ďAnd there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sightĒ

What then does this scripture in Hebrews tell us about the second rider on the white horse which is Jesus Christ ?

First of all Hebrews defines the meaning of the two edged sword . This sword divides the thoughts and intentions of peoples hearts in a scalpel like way enabling one to accurately judge . This confirms that my point about the first riders bow indicates that he could not be Jesus Christ . Christ would never use such a clumsy weapon as such would be random and unable to accurately discern peoples hearts .

Hebrews 4:13 goes on to describe Christís sight as being so keen that there `is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight` .
Compare this idea with Revelation 19:12 :

Rev 19:12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself,
Hebrews 4:14 then tells us that he is a high priest and Revelation then tells us he has many crowns .
The name of this second rider is called in Revelation `the word of God the linking this with the Hebrews scripture .

Rev 19:13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.

This all provides good evidence that the rider on the first white horse is not Jesus but is probably the antichrist due to his appearance being so similar to the real Jesus Christ / Word of God who rides his white horse towards the end of the book of Revelation . So there are two riders of white horses in Revelation not including Christís angels who ride with Jesus on his white horse unlike the first white horse .

What do YOU think ?



Another argument that I forgot to mention on my first post that the first rider on the white horse is the antichrist and not Jesus Christ is to do with the parallel accounts of the four horsemen of the apocalypse and the parallel accounts in Matthew and Mark .

The second horse rider is that of War but when Christ was asked by the apostles what the sign of his coming was he also mentioned war as a second sign . So what Christ said was the first sign before war should give us a clue as to the identity of the first rider on the white horse as these prophecies parallel those of the four horsemen . What did he say ?

Mat 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
Mat 24:4 And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU;
Mat 24:5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

Mar 13:5 So Jesus started to say to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU.
Mar 13:6 Many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and will mislead many.

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son.

So the antichrist is here mentioned by Christ so itís a good bet that the rider on the first horse of the of the apocalypse is the antichrist .
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e-magine
Reading Mark


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sp! Thanks for the shelter!!
I AM ESPICALLY INTERESTED IN THE SECOND RIDER..E-M
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Anchor
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a most interesting subject. Smile

I would like to share my thoughts:

I believe that the rider on the white horse at Revelation 6:1-2 is Christ with Yahweh. Christ has taken God's bow and God gave him a crown. (See Daniel)



Here are some Scriptures to consider:



See Psalms 18:32-43
"And He sets me upon my high places. He trains my hands for battle, so that my arms can *bend a bow of bronze.*


Psalms 18:13-14
"The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Most High uttered His voice, hailstones and coals of fire. And He sent out His arrows, and scattered them, and lightning flashes in abundance and routed them."



See Psalms 45:1-7

"..........'I address my verses to the King; my tongue is the pen of a reader writer. Thou art fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon thy lips; therefore God has blessed thee forever. Gird thy sword on thy thigh, O mighty one, in thy splendor and thy majesty! And in thy majesty ride on victoriously, for the cause of truth and meekness and righteousness, let thy right hand teach thee awesome things. Thine arrows are sharp; the peoples fall under thee; Thine arrows are in the heart of the Kings enemies. Thy throne O god is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou has loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of joy above thy fellows."



It is mainly the above Scriptural passage that makes me lean toward believing that the rider on the white horse at Revelation 6:1-2 is Yahshua with God. After he was given the crown, he began to ride victoriously with his Father and has continued his ride even to this day, while God is putting his enemies under his feet.



Psalms 64:7
"But God will shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly they will be wounded."




Remembering what Yahshua said:


Matthew 10:34
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace but a sword."


So what we see after Yahshua began his victorious ride, is the rider on the Red Horse, which rides to take peace away from the earth, then comes the following riders to bring famine, death and hades.


Warmest~
Sheila R
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Anchor
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rider on the white horse in Revelation 19

When I compare Isaiah 63 with Revelation 19:11-21 I really don't believe that the rider on the white horse is representing Christ, only. I now lean more to believing that it is God with Christ. ( Christ is actually representing God just as he did when he was speaking God's words on earth) Because in reality it is God who is putting Christ's enemies under his feet. (See Psalms 91)

Please read Isaiah 63 and compare it with Revelation 19 11-21. Then consider the Scriptures below:


Notice at 19:11 that it says his name is called "Faithful and *True*. This is spoken much the same way when speaking of God as we see by the Scriptures below:


Revelation 19:9:
".............."these are the *true* words of God".



Psalms 119:160:
"All your *words are true*, all your righteous laws are eternal.

"

John 3:33:
"The man who has accepted it has certified that God is *truthful*.



John 7:28:
"................." but he who sent me is *true*."



John 17:3:
"................" the only *true* God."



Romans 3:4:
"..................."Let God be *true* and every man a liar."



1 Thessalonians 1:9:
"................." to serve a living and true God ."



1 John 5:20:
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is *true*. And we are in Him who is *true* __ even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the *true* God and eternal life."



Revelation 15:3:
"........................."Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and *true* are your ways, *King of kings and Lord of lords*, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see."....."


Deuteronoomy 7:9:
"Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, He is the *faithful* God, keeping His covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commands."


1 Thessalonians 5:24:
"The one who calls you is *faithful* and He will do it."


John 8:29:
"The one who sent me is with me "


John 14:9-10:
"....................."anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say "show us the Father?" Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me who is doing His work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or else at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."


So again, it appears to me that the rider on the white horse called "Faithful and True" is God with Christ, and God is the one who is also called the WORD of God. (Just as John 1:1 shows that the Word IS GOD.) He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty just as Isaiah 63 says that God does. Notice in Isaiah that he says that He does it in the "greatness of His strength".

Yahsua never claimed to do things in his own strength but in his Father's strength.

Love and blessings~
Sheila Rae
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Interpretum
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Seraphim

I still think it may be Jesus partly for the reasons Anchor sets out. Christ is the "first and the last", as it were. So it makes sense to me that Christ would both commence the events of Revelation, and finish them.

White is universally used in Revelation as a symbol of worthiness. Please note the use in Rev 3:4,5 and 4:4. Notice also in the same chapter as the white horse, the holy ones are given a "white robe".

Notice also that Jesus refers to "him who overcomes" in each of the 7 letters to the 7 congregations. The Greek word for "overcome" is nikaō, which is the same word used to describe the "conquest" by the rider of the first horse.

Jesus himself said that he had conquered: "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Rev 3:21)

The whole of Revelation is basically about Jesus going out to conquer and complete his conquest... not necessarily in the sense of waging physical warfare, any more than a Christian's warfare was physical.

Things of an antichristian nature are usually made very plain in Revelation. Look at the description of the second wild beast in Revelation 13 - it has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon, deceiving with false miracles. This, if anything, deserves the title of antichrist, but I don't think the rider of the first horse deserves that title.

Perhaps, however, it is ambiguous to highlight the ambiguous nature of truth before it is clarified by God. After all, war, death and famine (as personified by the other horsemen) are pretty ambiguous too - which has led people throughout the centuries to believe they're living in the days when the four horsemen are riding (i.e. 1914, or "any day now" according to Futurists).

Only when put into a 1st century context, does some of the mystery dissolve. Wars, famines and death are not signs... that, I believe, is what Jesus was saying in Mathew 24.

The thing that was to act as a sign for Christians was the surrounding of Jerusalem by Roman armies. That was a sign! It was their signal to flee.

And that, in my opinion, is what Revelation 6 is all about. The four horsemen were not signs, per se, but were things that would come about as a reversal of Zechariah's peaceful four horsemen (Zechariah 1). They are symbolizing the trouble that would come upon Jerusalem.

The sun, moon and stars darkening were the traditional Jewish idioms for imminent disaster on a people or city - in this case, the Jews.

So there is indeed a connection between Mathew 24 and Revelation 6 - the connection is 1st century Jerusalem!
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Master Li
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

definately christ, he makes his entrance here at the begining of the 7 year tribulation wearing a crown, he has a bow, just as portrayed in psalms 45, but is seen again as he arrives as king in revelation 19.
The rest of the riders display what is coming during the first half of the tribulation seals 2-6, this system we are in now collapses at this 6th seal which is also satans downfall, and at the 7th seal the 1st of 7 trumpets is blown which is the time of the last king..satan is in a rage here as his time is very short...
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Master Li
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dear interpretum..most definately there is a link between matt 24:4-14 and revelation 6 where the 6 seals are opened...and whats more, the good news is still to be preached before the end time begins which is matt 24:15-29 and trumpets 1-7 (Revelation 8:1-9:21, 11:15)
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Athanasius
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is another possibility. Being a fan of Ronald Knox, I consulted his Commentary on the New Testament, volume 3, page 207. Regarding the rider in Appocalypse 6:2, Knox says that "it seems plain that he is a symbol of calamity, like the three riders who follow him. The difficulty is to see how the mission of this war-lord differs from that of the second horseman, who is to 'take away all peace from the world.' Conceivably, the bow marks him out as the symbol of Parthia; our Lord had prophesied 'rumours of wars,' and probably the eastern world had thought of Parthia as a possible invader up to A.D. 63, if not later. John remembers the war-scares of the time; remembers, too, how a few years later all peace was taken away from the world, not by invasion from without, but as the result of Roman armies turning on one another. Thus the first horseman will represent foreign menace, the second civil war; the third is plainly famine."
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