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Second Friends, C. S. Lewis and Ronald Knox in Conversation

 
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:15 am    Post subject: Second Friends, C. S. Lewis and Ronald Knox in Conversation Reply with quote

Recently, while recovering from major surgery, I had a chance to read Milton Walsh's book Second Friends--C. S. Lewis and Ronald Knox in Conversation. Lewis and Knox were two of the most popular authors of Christian apologetics in the Twentieth Century.

Though they had much in common, Knox and Lewis only met once in the late 1930s. Quoting from the book regarding this meeting: "Lewis started well by greeting Knox as possibily the wittiest man in Europe. After that the party flourished, and both afterward expressed their delight with the other. Each was witty, humorous, and very widely read; each had an unobtrusive but profound Christian faith. They had much to say to each other, and it was a pity that Monsignor Knox left Oxford and that they had few further opportunities to meet."

Nevertheless, Knox and Lewis admired and liked each other. In Second Friends Walsh delves into their writings and compares their views on a variety of compelling topics, such as the existence of God, the divinity of Christ, the problem of suffering, miracles, the way of Love, the role of religion in society, prayer, and more. It is enjoyable to read how Fr. Milton Walsh brought Knox and Lewis together is a way that enables us to understand both of them better.
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PropMin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had shied away from Lewis, but recently came across the Screwtape Letters, which was brilliant. I just wasnt thrilled with 'Narnia' and the occult nature of some of it (probably a subconscious JW-leftover Rolling Eyes ).

I'll have to keep that one in mind. Wink
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess I've been a fan of Ronald Knox since I first read his translation of the Bible in the early 1960s. Though still a Witness at the time, in the 1970s I obtained several of his books, including Trials of a Translator and A Spiritual Aeneid.

I must say that Knox started me thinking about leaving the Witnesses, and for that I owe him a debt of gratitude. I haven't read much of Lewis even though he was Anglican like myself. Surprisingly today Lewis is more popular in Catholic circles than in Protestant.
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PropMin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After perusing it a bit, I see that Knox's translation is (or has) come out for publication recently. I havnt seen a Knox Bible, but I would like to. Im partial to the Vulgate as it is; I think its fantastic that we have a 4th Century Latin translation of earlier scripts that are no longer around. In the states Latin is only for the catholic educated folk, and not for the masses, so, most are without that sense of the language.

As far as Lewis goes, Screwtape blew me away. The presentation of it, the concepts described and how they are used is great. I had read that he had an occult upbringing, and then was later a pal of Tolkien.
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Knox New Testament is in print now, not sure if the entire Bible has been reprinted. Not sure about now, but back in the 1980s and 90s one could fine the Knox Bible at Friends of the Library sales and second hand book stores. In fact I once picked of a leather bound Knox Bible for one dollar US at a Salvation Army store.

The Knox Bible first came out in three volumes. The first volume, the New Testament, came out in 1945. The Old Testament was published in two volumes in 1949. In 1955 the Knox Bible was published in a revised one volume edition.

I have all three volumes of the original Knox Bible. Interestingly Knox occasionally uses the Divine Name in the Old Testament in the 1949 volumes. Instead of Yahweh or Jehovah, Knox uses Jave, which in Latin would be pronounced Yahweh. But in the revised 1955 edition he substitutes Lord. However, the Divine Name doesn't appear in the original Latin Vulgate upon which Knox's translation is based.

Shortly before his death in 1957, Knox published a three volume commentary on the New Testament. Hopefully these will also be reprinted.
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PropMin
Reading Galatians


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Here in Wichita we have plenty of used book stores that constantly 'shuffle' Bibles through their door; I'll look out for that one.

I really like Bibles that at least try to use the name Yahweh in the OT. I think the New Jerusalem and Rotherdams are the only ones that use it on a consistent basis. Have you read the Rotherdams before? Its very interesting.

While Ive got quite a collection, I usually fall back on the KJV for reading and listening (audio by Scourby is the best), and referring to any and all for further study. Which ones do you like the most?
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually there are a number of Bible translations that use Yahweh in the Old Testament. The Christian Community Bible--Catholic Pastoral Edition used Yahweh as the Divine Name in the Old Testament. Though the Old Testament portion was never completed, the Westminster Version Bible uses Jehovah in the O.T. Then there is the Holy Name Bible, published by the Scripture Research Association, which uses Yahweh in the O.T., but without any textual or historical basis, inserts it into the New Testament. In fact the Holy Name Bible uses Yahweh in the N.T. more times than the Watchtower uses Jehovah in the New World Translation Greek Scriptures.

Should also mention the Bethel Edition Bible published by the Assemblies of Yahweh. This version also uses Yahweh in both the Old and New Testaments. But like the New World Translation, it too is a sectarian Bible.

However, I read recently that Holman, publishers of the Holman Christian Standard Bible, is preparing a new Bible version for release next fall. It will restore Yahweh to the Old Testament, but will not insert the name in the New Testament. This will be a non-denominational Protestant Bible. As soon as I learn more about this version I will let you know.
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PropMin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. What do you think of the New Jerusalem? I kind of like it for 'lighter' reading, if you will.

I had a nice Holman Bible I sent to my brother in Washington (before he became a fugative...I guess the Bible "didnt take"...), I kind of liked it because of the more conservative approach and the really good footnotes. I hope that they do come out with that new one and put Yahweh in.

What are your thoughts on the use of the name 'Jehovah' in Bibles? Even after leaving the JW's I held on to it for about a year or so, but the more I read from other translations and influences the less important it became, as a matter of spiritual focus. As a JW, EVERYTHING is 'jehovah' this or that, but when that veil comes off, it seems to me that more import in terms of 'name' is that of Christ. Im not dogmatic about NOT using 'Jehovah' if others choose to do so, but I just dont use it myself in spiritual matters or conversation.

I realize Yahweh isnt "perfect", but, 'jehovah' is much less so on the 'proper name of God' "scale" (I suppose...should such a scale exist...per se.... Smile
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the New Jerusalem Bible. I have the edition that has the detailed translator notes. Also have the Holman Christian Standard Bible, which uses Yahweh occasionally in the Old Testament. Both are good translations.

Regarding the use of the name Jehovah in the O.T., I believe it should be replaced with the more correct name Yahweh. Even when I was serving as a Witness elder I felt that Yahweh was more correct. In fact I used Yahweh in my private prayers while still a Witness.

Might mention something about the Divine Name. Four years after leaving the Witnesses I became engaged to a Jewish woman and even took the Jewish living class. Most Jews don't pronounce the Divine Name because it is sacred. Therefore, my fiancee said it was offensive for me to say Yahweh. However, since Jehovah had no meaning at all, that word was permissible to pronounce.

After that I thought how ironic that we have a religious group that makes a big issue about using a name that has no meaning at all.
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PropMin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you put it that way, its really very sad, isnt it?
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is also ironic when you think about it. "No meaning at all" Witnesses.

Many years ago I heard a lecture on Jehovah's Witnesses by Duane Magnani of Witness Inc., an anti-cult ministry. He suggested that Watchtower president Joe Rutherford played a joke on his flock by calling them Jehovah's Witnesses. Magnani said if you say Jehovah's Witnesses really fast three times, eventually you will be saying "Joe's Witnesses." That's why he liked the name.

The Witness argument that Jehovah is a more popular usage of the Divine Name is also flawed. Since when have Jehovah's Witnesses done something because it was popular among non-JWs.
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PropMin
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are exactly right sir, and that is a point that I saw right away after the veil was off.

The Divine Name brochure goes on for 32 pages about the all important nature of the name 'jehovah', and yet in two consice sentences buried in the middle, it flatly says the name is a contrived man-made word, and its choice of usage based soley on popular acceptance.

WHop-t-do? JW's hammer away against anything and EVERYTHING based on tradition and popular acceptance. Completely ridiculous.

And yet, the entire movement is really based on a false sense of importance based on this one word. Why anyone would hang on to it (the religion or the word) after knowing this is beyond me.

Another thing that got me, is that while there is admittance by the WT that 'jehovah' is not in ANY of the NT manuscripts ("It WAS there...", but no real proof), the name Jesus Christ is in the NT almost 1,000 times, NT scripture CLEARLY says over and over that Jesus name is the most important one under the sun, yet Jesus get lips service at best in KH's, and entire meetings go by without Jesus being mentioned or refered to at all (accept in the wrote "prayer" 2 or 3 times).

It ALL becomes really extremely sad when really inderstood. Jesus is purposefully kept from them, while a phoney no-import name is in his place.

I wonder, what are your thoughts about things like this:

http://www.eliyah.com/jhovah.htm

http://www.remnantofyhwh.com/Is%20His%20Memorial%20Name%20Jehovah.htm
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Athanasius
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting websites, Propmin. Especially the part about "hovah" meaning ruin and mischief. The more I think about it, it sure looks like Joe Rutherford really did play a prank on his followers by giving them the name Jehovah's Witnesses.
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PropMin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One has to wonder how much ol' Joe was influenced by the Devil.

Its an amazingly clever trap; good hearted people wanting to "do" gods will get caught in a spiritual 'shell-game' in which it simply isnt possible to "win", and the hamster wheel that folks find themselves on after several years of effort, goes absolutely nowhere.

Its almost as if a 'club' was created to keep a certain demographic completely blinded to the kind of spiritual life they could have, while serving the interests and whims of whoever is at the top pulling those strings.
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Athanasius
Reading Matthew


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has been speculation that Joe Rutherford was a spirit medium. Back in 1989 I wrote an essay on the subject which required some research using Watchtower publications. It is interesting that the 1975 Yearbook Of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 151, may confirm this, quoting A. H. Macmillan explaining how the Witnesses got their name at the 1931 Cleveland, Ohio convention:

"In fact it was God Almighty, I believe that led to that, for Brother Rutherford told me himself that he woke up one night when he was preparing for that convention and he said, 'What in the world did I suggest an international convention for when I have no special speech or message for them? Why bring them all here?' And then he began to think about it, and Isaiah 43 came to his mind. He got up at two o'clock in the morning and wrote in shorthand, at his own desk, an outline of the discourse he was going to give about the Kingdom, the hope of the world, and about the new name. And all that was uttered by him at that time was prepared that night, or that morning at two o'clock. And there is no doubt in my mind--not then nor now--that the Lord guided him in that, and that is the name Jehovah wants us to bear and we're very happy and very glad to have it."

Interestingly in this memoir Macmillan describes the activities of a spirit medium and thus reveals the demonic origin of the name Jehovah's Witnesses. Was Joe performing what the New Age people call Channeling through automatic writing? Spirit medium Johannes Greber in his book COMMUNICATION WITH THE SPIRIT WORLD OF GOD, page 109 says:

"Whenever messages from the spirit-world through writing are set down by a person, you speak of him as a 'writing medium.' The manner in which the writing is accomplished differs widely in the case of the various writing mediums. In one instance the thoughts may be inspired into the medium and written down by him; he is therefore sometimes known as an 'inspirational medium.' Another's hand may be guided at the same time that the words he writes are inspired into his mind. All the while he is fully conscious of his actions. Contemporaneous inspiration is necessary in those cases in which the medium offers strong resistance to the guidance of his hand. Others again know only that they are writing, but are quite ignorant of what they set down. Still others write in a state of utter unconsciousness; they know neither that they are writing nor what they are writing. Moreover it not infrequently happens that one and the same medium will write in several of the ways I have described."

In September 1973 when distributing the Kingdom News special tract, I met a gentleman who accepted the tract without knowing that it was a Witness publication. He glanced through it and saw that it was published by the Watchtower. He said: "Watchtower? The Devil's warehouse."

I didn't realize until almost fifteen years later that the man was right.
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